• MG Team

Sound Designing the understated drama "Test Pattern"




TRANSCRIPTION:



Steven Fine (SF): Welcome, we're here to discuss the power of sound design in storytelling, and how a director uses sound to best enhance their films. I'm your host, Steven Fine; I'm a post-production supervisor, and a writer/director. I'm here with MelodyGun's lead sound designer, Thomas Ouziel.


Today we're discussing 'Test Pattern', an award-winning film that just released to high praises from audiences and critics, including The New Yorker and Rolling Stone. IndieWire has dubbed this the 'must see indie gem of 2021' and it currently sits on Rotten Tomatoes at 95%. Today we have joining us the writer and director Shatara Michelle Ford. Thanks for being with us Shatara.


Shatara Michelle Ford (SMF): Hey! Thanks for having me Steven.


SF: Of course! Congratulations on the release, and the amazing reception.


SMF: Thank you.


SF: I've seen the movie twice now and I absolutely loved it. Since we're here talking about sound, I do want to talk about the tone and the sound of the film, and how the evolved from writing the movie, to shooting it, and the post process for you.


SMF: Yeah. Well, I'm the type of filmmaker that likes to use all of my tools in the toolbox to express an idea, especially when it relates to a character's internal experience, or processing of an experience. I'm really influenced by German Expressionism in particular, but also the ways in which more Classical and Neo-Classical filmmakers used score and sound altogether. For me, if I can avoid dialogue, to express an idea, I'm going to. And the way that looked like in the script was, you know, it was a relatively short script, it's 35 pages long, and some of that was a part of the technique of working with my actors: as in, we did a lot of rehearsal and creation of character together, that helped expand scenes and ideas.


The script was also really short because I knew the role that silence was going to have to play in it. Since I'm interacting with realism, it's important to let human beings arrive at an idea, or a moment, on their own time and so I didn't want to pack so much into the script, plot wise, that we didn't have time for my actors to have the agency to choose when they were finally going to decide to say something, if they'd say anything at all. So, yeah, silence has a lot to do with that: which, again, very much related to sound.


There are always moments when I always err on the side of subtlety, and so if there's something that I'm not letting my character explicitly say, it was a note that I made to myself that this is still a point that I need have the audience have some sort of “felt” understanding of: if it's not fully identified and tangible, again that's where I rely on sound.


The film wouldn't be what it is, in ANY way, without the relationship that I had with Thomas and the role that he played in the film. - Shatara Michelle Ford

The film wouldn't be what it is, in ANY way, without the relationship that I had with Thomas and the role that he played in those we film. But I think, more than anything, the film also wouldn't have been able to add that layer for the audience. I think there's a lot in Renesha [Brittany S. Hall]'s experience that we understand on a much more emotional level than it is intellectual, because there's extra inputs that are contributing to that. And, I think, on further reflection, or conversation with a friend, or on second or third viewings you can dial it in and identify it more, but, in that moment, all you know is the feeling. I think that helps you sit in her body a little bit better, you're kind of experiencing it as she is experiencing it: there's this relational, real-time processing of the situation itself, which I think is important. And, again, it just couldn't have been done without sound.



Wri/dir Shatara Michelle Ford and Hamed Hokamzadeh @ a mix session

SF: The sound design, I thought, was incredible. It is what made me FEEL the most. I do love the script, and the way you set up the circumstance, but the characters never really say how they feel, it's all being told to you from those moments where she's sitting in silence, being isolated or listening to Snoopy be very abrasive throughout the day.


So, Thomas, what was your experience watching it for the first time? And what were some of the things that were brought up during the spotting session that you remember?



Thomas Ouziel (TO): Yeah, the first time I watched it, all these things were kind of talked about. I was really struck by the “gray” nature of the characters: they're real people, they feel like real people, and they don't always make the right choice, but you always understand why they would do what they're doing. And so, ultimately, it feels like a true story, because by the end there is no happy ending; they both have gone through this thing and they feel like they're on different paths now. We don't know what's going to happen, but that's kind of the key thing.


So, when we talked in the spotting, a lot of things that she brought up, we just went all-in about “What is the feeling in these silences?” and how can these great performances shine? We don't have to do a lot to try to aggrandize it, we can sit with them, and make it feel very real, and in those quiet moments you're really projecting a lot of what you're feeling as well. I think a male viewer might have a different experience from a female viewer, and by the end you realize just how different we might think about things.


I agree. When you first see it, you understand the rage, but you also understand that that rage is not necessarily conducive to the right thing that Renesha wants. That was definitely something we talked about a lot, and all the themes that led to the kind of story that Shatara wanted to tell. As she said, all those conversations don't necessarily show up in a specific way, but you FEEL them throughout the whole film and by the end, after the sequence at the bar, everything feels very lonely, and feels very quiet. There's this underlying tension, despite being quiet, of things unsaid between the two of them, and they're both trying to fix it in their own way, and they're not communicating. The film is very much about communication or lack thereof. And, with the idea of American culture, that does feel like something, especially in America, we have this repressed sensibility, of wanting to feel strong all the time, of wanting to hide from these vulnerable emotions, and maybe we should confront them more often, and be open to discussing them, because it can avoid a lot of unnecessary pain. It's beautiful that that is not really said, but you just understand that kind of feeling through the film.


Yeah, with all that, you're always very lucky to work with talented filmmakers who, when you get the cut, you feel that. Even in the edit, they brought it to us and we felt that immediately, and we went to work enhancing that as much as we could.


So we ended up mixing the music in a way that was sound design-y, but without needing to unnecessarily overload the experience - Thomas Ouziel

And the score as well is phenomenal. One thing we talked about with Shatara was using Hitchcockian things, where you're not really doing as much with design necessarily, but you're using the music. So we ended up mixing the music in a way that was sound design-y, but without needing to unnecessarily overload the experience, but you can use it to twist and modulate the experience to match the emotion and experience that we're looking for. That was a lot of fun.



SMF: That's exactly right. It's been many years now and I definitely have pandemic brain, that is totally right. It's been funny, you know, the film has been out for six weeks now, and it was in the festival circuit for like 18 months before then, and there's always somebody that is like “The sound! Everything was just too loud! It was just a lot, and I don't know how I feel about it!” and it's like: I remember in that spotting session, all of the sound folks and editorial folks were there, all the post folks and everybody, I remember the conversation just amongst you [Thomas], me and Rob Rusli about the fact that this is going to be a choice, almost the score itself, and the relationship the design has with it, is bold enough to live on its own, and there's going to be times when the actors are acting on top of it, or that it's right alongside with it. And I think, contemporary indie films in particular, scores are really brought down, sound design is really brought down, and it sits in the background and hums a little bit, if it's there at all. Again, there was this Hitchcockian thought of how are they competing on top of each other, and what are the choices when we're bringing it up beyond what's happening in front of us, and pushing it or smashing it inside.


I don't think there's really any point where the score and its design choices are behind the action, or beneath it, it's always completely braided in or layered on top. Which, yes, was very much a choice. And I think that folks who weren't expecting that, and maybe aren't necessarily used to that, it's jarring. And I think that's fair, but then the question goes back to “why?”, why that exists to begin with. And I think what we also talked a lot about in that spotting session, was.. or at least, maybe it was in my head and I thought I did, you can confirm if I actually communicated that well, but constantly for me, as a Black person, and as a woman, feeling very alienated from most of the spaces that I'm in, I'm always having a more detailed, specific, internal conversation that no one else is really part of. And, I think, what I was hoping that the sound was doing was expressing that kind of experience that I have onto the screen. And so, when things are really really loud, that's Renesha's overall feeling in relation to the environment that she's in. Again, I'm not sure if that was actually articulated, but I feel like there were a couple of moments, in later sessions, where I'd ask you to turn it up a little bit. I was like “Just push that up just a little bit more”, and you'd be like “Okay, cool.”.


SF: Yeah, I think the characters feel so real in the writing and performing of it, but the experience felt cinematic. Like you're talking about with raising that music and how it integrates with the sound design, I have noticed in indie films it being a lot lower and it doesn't engage me as much. Maybe I'm the kind of audience member who loves some in-your-face expressionistic filmmaking? And that's what this felt like, expressionistic filmmaking, where you're truly immersed in the experience.


TO: I also think that, by the nature of it being a very quiet film, you have more room for the dynamics. It's funny too, because in a lot of quiet scenes, Shatara, you were actually doing the opposite, you were like “can we actually take that down a little bit”. It's because we want them [the audience] to lean in.


SMF: Yeah, we wanted the extreme.


TO: You want to lean in and then when it did get big you were like “oh damn!”. You feel it. Like the sequence in the bar, then it flows into this low-end thing that is quiet, but you feel under the surface, with that kind of soft wind, all those little things build into that experience and enhance each other to get you into that head space.


SMF: You know, going back to the expressionistic thing, it's interesting: I definitely play in realism, I really appreciate and find necessity in realism, especially when you're talking about folks that aren't in the mainstream. I think it's slightly irresponsible to be fantastical with that, because right now there's not enough of our experience in the zeitgeist for us, for outsiders, to be able to parse what is fantastical and surreal and out there, and not grounded in truth. And so, yeah, as much as it's realistic, the expressionistic thing is me saying “Y'all, this is a movie, this is not a documentary, this is a movie,” and so, therefore, I'm editorializing a bit here. And I'm letting you know that these are the specific things that I want you to see, and that I want you to hear, and I want you to feel. And you can disagree about my choices in that, but maybe wonder why I'm doing it. Like, let's have a conversation about WHY I'm doing it, and how that relates to the people that you're looking at on the screen.


I don't know, I think that's something I really appreciate and I really miss in this moment that we're in, in cinema: where you've got the contemporary blockbuster studio films that are all 11's, everything is up up up, and then the indie stuff where it's like, we're just here with this person and we're experiencing these things with this person, and very rarely are we getting the editorialization of what that person's experience is, and how they relate to the rest of the world, which is something I think that New Hollywood did in the late 60's, early 70's really well. I constantly go back to thinking about 'Dog Day Afternoon' or 'Taxi Driver' or 'Midnight Cowboy' as films that are very much steeped in this element of realism, but there's a lot of extra stuff going on in the design, in the mise-en-scène, in the soundtrack, that's getting the audience to a place.



SF: Yeah, I wanted to bring that up. So, obviously, the meet cute and their whole relationship developing, those elements didn't feel as heightened as later points in the movie: it feels like more you're in a real relationship that's developing. And obviously, once the incident occurs, I'm even happy with how Evan [Will Brill] is handling that at first. He's quiet, and he's understanding, and you see him slowly lose control of trying to help her, and then veering it into his own motives, and as that's happening he gets louder and louder, and the scene starts to get more chaotic and more chaotic. So, I wanted to discuss the juxtaposition of the more realistic sounding scenes before the incident, and how that changes after the incident, and how the progression of the different hospitals grow as well, in sounds.


SMF: Yeah, for sure. Well, first, there's the other thing I have to say, which is I've said that the movie is about all these things, but another thing that it's very much about is trauma, and how trauma is internalized and processed. I think about the majority of the expressionistic moments in the film, they're very much tied to a place in Renesha's life, her lived experience on screen, where she has had this trauma and she's working through it, or existing within it.

I think that Evan's journey, from them having the conversation back at Amber [Gail Bean]'s house, to going to the first hospital, then the second hospital, then the third hospital, is also its own version of trauma. I think Evan is experiencing his own trauma, but also the way he's expressing his stress is putting more trauma onto Renesha. And so, again, that's why there's so much of this cacophony within the design itself in the score, and Renesha's overall expression, as projected cinematically.


If we go back, and we just talk about the first section, what could sometimes be read as the romantic comedy, the “meet cute” element of the story, that's also a device that I was using, right? For me, I was trying to make a very specific point about what is wrong, and I don't think you can make a good point about something being wrong until you show something being done right, and you compare them and contrast the two. So the first 20 minutes is very much a place setting, so you understand where all the pieces are, what's supposed to feel good, what is correct in the world, what feels grounded and real within this construct that I've created for the audience. And we're even skipping over the first few minutes where we see Renesha and Mike [Drew Fuller], we don't really know who they are to each other, we don't really know what's going on, but I needed to put that first, intentionally, so we understood that this is information that you have, without any kind of editorialization, it's just so you have it, so you know it's here. And then we move on to this meet cute with Evan and Renesha: again, this is information you need to know about these people, they come from these opposite places, they interact in these very specific ways, they miss each other, many times, even early on, so if I'm telling you that they miss each other, even when things are good, imagine what it looks like when things are bad. And then, on top of that too, within this very basic, stark, uneditorialized, unexpressed realism, we have them negotiating, and navigating, elements of boundaries and autonomy and consent. That's what that initial point is.


And then we go into the second section, which is very established and very rooted, however the colors kind of are informing us of a very different emotional state for the two of them. And things really just go haywire once we're in the bar and Renesha is experiencing what I would argue [are] the first elements of her trauma. And, again, that's a much more gender-based and racialized trauma, in the sense of they're in this bar with a culture that's very different to their own, and it doesn't feel fully normal? Truly, again, as a Black person, that's me in most White spaces, they're just surreal as hell: I feel like I move through a Lynch movie a day. So that was the idea of the bar, right? In the best of times it's just a David Lynch movie, and in the worst of times it's turning into this horror thing that's going on the other side and that Renesha inches her way into. I think that from the moment she's lost all control of herself, that's when we slip into this much more specific and deliberate expressionist technique, because she no longer is able to speak for herself, and she's now gone into herself, and so everything that she's experiencing is heightened, but also deeply internal, so it's heard and it's felt, but it's not discussed.


So everything that she's experiencing is heightened, but also deeply internal, so it's heard and it's felt, but it's not discussed. - Shatara Michelle Ford

TO: That's literally the lines we use usually, to discuss the power of sound design. And it's one of the reasons we loved working on this movie, obviously, it was this ability to maximize those moments and, once again, it doesn't mean that everything is at ten, it's getting someone to interact in a visceral way, that's subconscious, is one of the powers of sound that really changed the entire vibe without you ever really thinking about it. All the room tones we were choosing were very specific to make sure that all these scenes hit, like when you were talking about the hospitals, each of them having their own different vibe, and the loudest one seems to be the last one? Where it's pretty quiet and it just feels like they're both screaming at each other internally. Like “Why! Why can't you just do what I want you to do? It'll just solve the problem.” is what Evan is feeling, but she is like “Can we just get out of here? Because I want nothing to do with this. I need to go recover from, and try to deal with, this.” It's really well executed.


SMF: Yeah, I think that's the other thing that's very funny, there's definitely a few timelines going on in the film and the editorial timeline that I was working from is much more like an internal processing timeline for Renesha, which is its own thing. And that's a conversation I'm also having about trauma, is that you never arrive at a point in a linear way and it's never at a time that you can control or expect: it just arrives when it arrives.





The three hospitals themselves, the room tones are slightly different of course because they're different sizes of spaces that we're working in, but ultimately there's not much else going on in them, but it feels like it is, because it's sandwiched in between things that are much bigger and much more extreme. I think that's really cool. The third one, as Thomas already mentioned, feels so loud, but that's because the emotions that were brought into that space were at their highest point. And then there's other things, we have 'Waltz of the Flowers' playing in the third one and it goes on for such a long time, and there's a few things that I'm doing, but on a sound level I'm about to cleanse the palette, right? So we've moved from a lot of these high [intensity] scenes within the car, and they'd just done that ridiculous rush through the second hospital, and Renesha has had to pee in this cup, and it's just all ridiculous: and the idea, for me, was that I'm going to bring it all the way up here, because I'm going to take it away in a second. And that's me saying “You need to pay attention to this thing that's about to happen, that's going to feel really really awful.”, and I think that, without having that sonic cacophony eliminated really abruptly, we wouldn't feel the tension as much, and I don't think that Renesha dropping that pee cup would be as devastating, or feel as embarrassing.


I'm sure we've all had this, but, think about a moment when you're with a sibling or a parent or a friend or significant other and y'all are just deeply embroiled in your own personal thing and it feels really big, but you're, like, at the post office. So everyone else around you, we're not a part of it, so it doesn't feel as big to anyone outside of it as it does to you, and there's always that jarring moment where you recognize that you're having this very heated thing publicly! And that was, again, the idea that I was going with in the third hospital: that pee cup dropping does a couple of things, it kind of snaps them out of that little world that they're in too, to kind of recognize how everything else around them is relatively silent in that moment. And that's kind of isolating and alienating on its own.


TO: And also Evan comes out of that being like “Oh... babe...”, I mean, obviously, it doesn't necessarily resolve in immediately improving how he's acting, but he definitely has that moment of “Ooh, I'm kind of making this worse”.


SF: The sequence where they're walking in in slow motion to the music and how heightened that is? It immediately told me to pay attention, but also I thought it was sort of ironic how epic this moment felt, for her filling out this paperwork, and how he was positioning himself to her, and making her fill out this paperwork. There was a moment where it reminded me of Kubrick in '2001'.


SMF: As it should! Totally stole it!


SF: You could see a spaceship going to this music, but also this moment of her filling out this paperwork is as big as that spaceship.


SMF: Yeah, there's another read of those sequences in '2001' where it's routine and monotonous, right? Like this idea of something being so big and complex, especially for the time, but it just has this kind of pattern that it does and it's like music, it's like a waltz: we all know what we're expected to do when this happens, we hit the beats, we do it, it's almost mindless, methodical.


TO: It's almost an inevitable feeling, like they have to go through these things. And what's great about that piece as a choice was, if you watch Evan, you get almost like the hero's journey, and if you watch her you're like “I can't believe I have to do this, but I'm just going to do it, and now I'm just doing it.” There's this kind of inevitable thing to it.


SMF: Yes, yes! Completely! And, again, it's absurd, right? That's another thing that I thought was important in that moment. It's as long as it is, it's that score, for a specific reason, all to kind of remind you that this is ridiculous.





SF: It works so well. It works so well and I love using songs that might be recognizable and giving it a new context and I thought that was so well done with that part.


I do want to go back to the incident, of when she was drugged, and the whole sequence of events, and ask Thomas about how you guys developed the sound design of that: being drugged and going through that very traumatic experience, before we even get into bringing Evan in.


TO: Yeah, that sequence is very music-driven, like we talked about, it's all about modulation too: we start in a very real place, this bar that feels uncomfortable and alien, a little bit, where nothing feels quite comfortable for her. And then he kind of loosens her up and makes her feel like maybe we can have some innocent fun that'd be able to get me through this, and then we'll go home. And then, obviously, throughout the sequence, the music starts to shift, and the intensity, we lose the diegetic music and it starts to become this score piece that feels sweeping, and like you're losing yourself, it feels like you get lost, then we start to really mess with the mixing and add some reverb and stuff like that to make it feel even more like this thing that is out of her control, even more so than before. And just keeps crescendoing, until it gets more and more lost, more and more reverb towards the end and we lose ourselves and just glide into this car, and it's like “Where are we now?”. We're just here, it just kind of happened. We talked a lot about how to make that sequence feel, sonically, like her experience and perspective-based. And using the music really as the driving force, as a cinematic tool.


SMF: I remember too, and correct me if I'm wrong, but we also took a lot of stuff out?


TO: We tried to use design more, and it just didn't help. You just try it and see how it feels and maybe it's great, and maybe it would've really amplified the scene, and it didn't. We were just like “This scene wants to be what it is” and, once again, the score is phenomenal, so it didn't NEED more to tell the story.


First of all, just from a feeling perspective, it feels cinematic, and you just kind of get lost in the image, which was beautiful, beautifully shot. And then you kind of let the performances do the work, it's one of those things when you get great material and you're just trying to amplify, and not get in the way of things too. The choice to not do something is just as important as the choice to do something, because it all changes the experience.





SMF: I'm glad that you brought that scene up, especially those elements, because I remember the ways in which we used sound. It's painful and awkward, and I don't mean those things in the cringe comedy ways, I mean it really in the deeply vulnerable way. And there's a moment where Drew's character Mike has where he realizes he's done something wrong, and he could own up to it, and he's thinking about it, and instead he does the really terrible, gaslight-y thing of, like, doubling down. And the way in which he doubles down is with passive aggression. I remember us hearing the cup, hearing the shoes drop on the floor, all these things that are definitely bumped up a bit, because it's trying to underline the point that it's passive aggression.


SF: Yeah, like he's irritated with HER for what he has done.


SMF: Yes!


SF: And it's so obnoxious. There's that one moment where you think he's having some recognition of his part in it, and he says “I just...”, and then he just stops. And he's like “Let's go.”, like “You're inconveniencing me to even drive you to your friends”? It's, ugh, it's so sickening... but that works so well in just feeling his perspective on the whole situation: he's clearly angry, and irritated, but it's almost like projection. He's irritated with himself, but he's projecting it onto her.


SMF: Completely yeah, ugh. And I think, again, those little passive aggressive acts we just nail within this bed of silence.


TO: And then he just speeds away, trying to escape as quickly as he can from the repercussions of his acts, yeah it's just super good.


SMF: That was such an aggro speed away too, oh my god.


SF: But it was like a weak aggro speed away, it was like a sloppy one, not one of those movie ones, like he couldn't even fully commit to speeding away because he's so unsure of himself now.


SMF: Yes! Haha!


TO: It's what we do.


SF: So, I wanted to talk about the fact that I heard little to no ADR in this movie, and how important was it for you, on set, preserving that production audio? No matter what, making sure you had the clearest voices, or if that was even a concern? I did notice that, particularly with their conversations and how specifically you would need to hear it or not hear it, how preserving production audio was important.


SMF: Yeah, you know, Steven, I don't know if that's true. There was a good amount of ADR, they are just good at their job.


TO: We'll never tell!


SF: Wow!


TO: No, but you always want to get performances from the day. I mean, when the characters and actors are IN it, that's what you want. Honestly, we didn't do very much, there were some clutch things we did have to do.


SMF: Absolutely.


TO: But, no, keeping all those performances, and the nuances, being able to save things that we didn't even realize were there, that actually really enhance the scene. Like we said before, you're making all these choices to keep stuff, or not keep it. Like when she finally gets the rape kit test, it's almost pure silence, we don't hear anything, and the choice to not have anything there is the same kind of thing. But, yeah, Shatara, sorry, go ahead.


SMF: The one scene that I think about a lot, and I stressed over, was the scene in the bar with Amber and Renesha talking about all the recent police murders and death of Black people in Texas and outside of Texas, but specifically Texas and, when I wrote it, two more had happened, between me writing it and shooting it, and I remember on the day we were shooting it I threw another one in for Gail to say. But then between us shooting it and recording ADR, there had been another one, and so it was hard to kind of squeeze that in, but I thought it was really important to squeeze it in, and thankfully there was enough cutting back and forth of Renesha scoping her surroundings and her reaction to what Amber was saying that I JUST got away with it? I was never fully happy with that scene, but it was worth still adding it in, because I think it was important to recognize that this happened so frequently.


SF: Yeah.


SMF: That was one, that was very much based on just getting information in there, to add to the gravity. And it's funny too, the people who appreciate it are the people who already know that's a thing. The people who are kind of like “Why are they having this conversation in this bar?” they're usually the ones who don't recognize, or appreciate, how constant this thing is, and how much it does affect folks within the group.


I think another part where the ADR was really important was, again, something that we don't see, we only hear. It's the conversation that Amber and Evan are having while Renesha is waking up and walking towards them. They were having that conversation, but it just wasn't fully picked up, because even when we shot it, I was focused on Renesha catching it in the background as opposed to us actually sitting with it and having that footage. And that was a decision, because I wanted the experience to constantly be from her, and I thought that if I actually shot that scene with Evan and Amber I would have the urge to cut back and forth and I just didn't want it. But, what we missed was that we were just not fully set up to hear it. So that was an important point where I kind of had to make sure that we got Gail and Will back in there, and have that conversation again, so we can hear it really clearly.




TO: I was going to say, it was important in the mix too to get the right balance of hearing key words and dipping it down so you're like “Wait, what is it?” because you WANT to catch it as the audience, and also as Renesha, so we were able to control the amount of interactivity, so you could feel more involved in that moment as well, and from her perspective, obviously.


SF: I mean, yeah, I definitely understand the desire to not shoot it, because you're afraid you might try to lean on it later and I've made a similar mistake with that. But, like, even when you're there on set, you just put a mic under them and have them have the conversation off camera...


SMF: I know!


SF: And then later you have that option to bring it up or down. But not filming it makes complete sense to me, because you don't want to be in that room until Renesha is in that room. But having that full audio, and being able to play with it, is definitely essential to the construction of it.


TO: It's a great creative choice too, because you could also see that scene being very effective IF you saw it. There is a version where someone else might shoot it, but the creative choice to not shoot it is, like you were saying, just as important. To just not show it, you're restricted from this other perspective as Renesha, and in that moment as well. And they're cut off from her.


SF: Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your insight into your process, and this beautiful movie, we really appreciate you being here. Working with post-production sound can sometimes be a little bit of a mystery to directors, and we're just trying to, hopefully, change that through these conversations, and help demystify the process. So, thank you so much for giving us that insight.


If you haven't caught 'Test Pattern' yet, it's out in theaters and digital cinemas through Kino Lorber, and we'll see you on the next one. Thanks so much Shatara.


SMF: Thank you!



Images courtesy of Kino Lorber.